anyone think there'll be this many candidates on stage, come next debate? or possibly more?
oooh, subquestion...based on the merits of this debate, do you think Lieberman is now officially on his way out?
So far, the main thing the debate has done for me is to heighten my contempt for Lieberman.
I think it will be rebroadcast shortly so the game is not over yet. Lieberman's toast though.
As you all well know, I'm a huge Dean fan, but I think Kerry won this debate (of course, there will be others). Gephardt did well, too (although a little crazy with his carrying on and wild gesticulations: "George Bush is a miserable failure... a miserable failure... a miserable failure. Ok, Dick, we get it, we get it!). Kerry's demeanor was good, he stayed away from attacking Dean and left that to Kucinich and Lieberman.
I thought Dean was OK, but his stump speech doesn't work well in this context, and some of his remarks sounded (to me) like they were too studied, and not spontaneous enough. And, he needs to set the tone more - he's the frontrunner - and loosen up a little!
Is it over? The online feeds are dead or playing other stuff.
Yep, fin.
I felt the same way about the stump speech at first but when Howard relaxes a bit be afraid. Be very afraid.
I have to disagree with the comments regarding Kerry. I don't think he won the debate. He looked tired and his answers didn't sound passionate.
Lieberman, Edwards, and Graham will not make to Thanksgiving.
The debate didn't seem complete without the opening and closing statements.
I was pleased with Gov. Dean's performance tonight. He looked very relaxed and presidential. In contrast, Kerry and Gephardt seemed a too anxious to make a good impression or to say all of the "right" things, and Joe Loserman looked plain silly trying to attack Gov. Dean.
I agree with Mr. Curtis. The stump speech is ineffective in this context. In most nationally-televised performances Dean seems tentative and (dare I say) unprepared. We all know he is fantastic in rally appearances and small group. We all know he's got great things to say. We all know he's the best candidate. How can he better translate these things to a national audience over television? There probably wasn't a huge audience watching tonight, but there will be in months to come, and Dean will need to better communicate his ideas in front of enormous television audiences. Thoughts?
I thought Dean was OK, but his stump speech doesn't work well in this context, and some of his remarks sounded (to me) like they were too studied, and not spontaneous enough. And, he needs to set the tone more - he's the frontrunner - and loosen up a little!
Chris: I agree, re-worked stump seems awkward for Dean in this setting -- it held him back, IMO. But, in this debate, the key was for Dean to make no mistakes -- and he didn't. But his performance was not his best.
In fact, he made one good score, turning Lieberman's attack right around. He was going for the "where's the beef" line, but he failed. He even got a few boos. And, now he's shown his hand.
Interestingly, with Lieberman's failure (IMO) to "get Dean" or "stop Dean" the torch will pass -- but to who?
Sure puts Kerry in a pickle, eh?
It's tough to go on a real, focused Dean-style harangue in a 9-candidate debate...I mean, you're standing silently for a half hour at a time...golly this format is miserable, it does the party a disservice.
By the same token, if Al Sharpton can't show up on time or show up at all on multiple occasions, where does he get off running for the presidency?
I agree with the comment about the speech. He needs to leave the rally speech for the rally's and answer with his gut and knowledge. Only one thing, he should have told Lieberman he needed to check with the real world about what some people got back on the tax cut. Some did get $100, which he told Dean wasn't true. It was.
One more thing: oddly (you heard it here first) tonight's big winner (though not THE winner) was Mosley-Braun.
She was really quite effective, and the way she shot down Lieberman was awesome!
We must remember that all of the candidates are using pieces of their stump speeches. If you are working for Dean, you can probably recite his by rote. They probably sound uninspiring by now to you, but not necessarily so to other, new viewers. Now, if you can recite the stump speeches of all of the other candidates too, then you're obviously not putting in enough work for Dean, and you should get your ass out of the living room and out into the places where voters roam!
As for Me Too Joey, well...he's the designated DLC spearcarrier. I can hear Fromm now "Joey, Joey, Joey - Zogby says you're only polling decent numbers where there's NO CAMPAIGNING going on . You can't win the presidency on triple secret probation, for crissake, so you're toast. Do us all a favor, willya, and spend the few months you have left by keeping Dean within distance for someone who has a ghost of a chance".
The gobenador did just fine.
I thought, of the serious candidates, Gephardt was the winner. A majority of people watching tonight were probably active democrats or left-leaners who wanted some red meat. Gephart gave it to them. Just like Dean has been doing for months. Kerry, I thought, seemed to tread his usual bizarre line between too-casual and overly analytical.
Braun was excellent. Howard even when starting off timid is the Man! He will only get better.
"We must remember that all of the candidates are using pieces of their stump speeches."
I agree. The problem is, that I have come to expect more of Dean than I do "all of the candidates." If he's changed almost all other aspects of presidential politicking, why not the debate?
put this debate into 3 tiers.I love Dean but...I saw it..
Gephart
mosely-Braun
kerry
grahm
kucnich
edwards
dean
lieberman
justIMO
I think Dean did ok, but I want him to do better. I believe he can. I believe he will. This seemed like a tough format. Still, I've not heard anything bad concerning Dean from the talking heads yet. In fact, he's getting some really good reviews from Gretta Van Susteren's panel of talking heads on Fox News. Also, when interviewing Sen Graham after the debate, he had nothing but good things to say about Dean. They wonder if he's positioning himself to bail out. He's still the frontrunner!
Somebody posted, and I agree, that it's good to give feedback on all this, but it is just one appearance, and we shouldn't put too much stock in it.
Dean did fine - there's work to do, of course, but we probably shouldn't read too much into it. All the candidates are going to have their good and bad moments along the trail. None of the candidates blew anyone else away.
My hunch is that much will continue to depend on organization (us), and money (also us), so that's likely the best way to help our candidate.
I've seen Dean in three of these kinds of venues. He has never done that well in them. Dean knows that he doesn't do well in them
It's imperative that Dean gives a great performance at sometime. This is where style is as much or more important than substance.
It will be in these kinds of debates that the country will learn about Dean and for him to be successful, he will have to master this format.
If it means taking a week out of the campaign and taking acting lessons or what ever is necessary, he should do it.
He needs a coach for these occasions. Not many people or two people helping him, but one specialist that is really good at this.
The trick for Dean is to know how to pull this off without looking like he's been surrounded with handlers.
It can be done and needs to be done soon.
Most of the audience, in the hall and on TV, has never heard Dean's stump speech. We have, so we act like insiders and fall asleep, figure he's not showing us anything new, and go ga-ga for the other acts. (Now you know why the Washington Press Corps reacts as it does.)
This is natural. It's OK. (Unless you're the Washington Press Corps, as I will explain.)
But if you have never heard these folks before, Dean did great. He looked and sounded Presidential. He spoke in clear, coherent sentences. He made simple sense with simple words. And he promised (for the first time I'd heard, but I'm told he told Wolf Blitzer) to get our troops out of Iraq, and replace them all with people from elsewhere.
It was a fine performance, even masterful. He had already mastered the material. He worked on the delivery. This made him sound more like a President than the others.
I know. The speech sounds canned now. But you've heard the speech. They haven't. And this debate wasn't about you -- it was about them. (This is what the Washington Press Corps never understands -- they think the whole thing is about them, and it's about us.)
I think Governor Dean sold a lot of people today. He took another step toward becoming President Dean.
Well said Dana. I think Dean really sold the people in that auditorium- he got some of the best applause of the night.
Dean wins by not f***ing up.
Gentle Joe loses by shedding his stately manner to the boos of the audience.
Kerry and Gep clamour just enough to vie for Joe's elder statesman seat.
Graham immediately goes on talk shows after to position for number 2 by talking up Dean.
Braun revitalizes her be-scandaled political career.
Kucinich keeps Dean looking like the center.
Who's the other young kid with the poor mill working father?
Humble takes,
Heath
DeanTV.org
Comments from the joint chief couldn't have come at a better time.
"If we need more troops, they are going to be foreign troops — not our troops," said Howard Dean, the former governor of Vermont"
More international troops are needed in Iraq (news - web sites) to stave off threats ranging from al-Qaida terrorists to brewing ethnic and religious conflicts, the top U.S. commander said Thursday.
In Washington, Gen. Richard Myers, chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, also said more international troops were necessary in Iraq — not because the current force needs help with security but because there is a need to counter the impression among Iraqis that the occupation is strictly an American operation.
"This has an awful lot to do with the Iraqi people and how they perceive coalition forces. I think the last thing we want is for them to believe this is a mission of the United States. It's much bigger than that," Myers said
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news...n_re_mi_ea/
iraq
I was disappointed in Dean's performance in tonight's debate. He came off stiff and seemed uncomfortable answering the questions. He's got to relax..I'm sure he'll lighten up as the debates continue. I thought Carol Mosley Braun outshined them all tonight. Funny how we all have different perceptions on this.
Dean did what he needed to do as the frontrunner by making no mistakes and looking presidential.
Those of you who are disappointed by Dean tonight clearly have heard his stump speech too many times. It's actually important for Dean to stick to the same points and repeat them in speech after speech, debate after debate, so that he's consistent. At least 90% of America has never heard Dean say a word, so all new viewers tonight got exactly the same message that drew YOU to Dean in the first place. If it worked for YOU, it'll likely for many of the 90% who've never heard him before. Think about it...
Overall, I think Gephardt and Braun did well in light of expectations and Lieberman hurt himself by managing to draw the only boos of the night (great distinction, I hope he's proud, especially since he's getting booed at a lot of events lately). Kerry and Edwards did nothing to set themselves apart (which is the only thing they absolutely needed to do) and Graham was positively sleep-inducing.
all the press reviews--hannity/colmes,
greta van susteran, and chris matthews
hardball have said this: dean is still the
frontrunner and it was pretty much the status quo. as a dean supporter
i agree that he has to relax a bit.
he will get better, don't worry.
i'll preface this by saying that about halfway through, i had to leave to pick up my husband from school, so i missed the 25 minutes after dean spanked lieberman and the last question. poo on that.
that being said...
i think i can say positive things about all but one candidate.
i felt kerry finally showed some fire, and i wondered where that was when we needed him after 9/11.
i felt gephardt showed some fire as well but he's our bob dole.
carol was so eloquent, and i really appreciate her presence, however she's forced me to change the drinking game. now we have to take shots when she says "osama bin missing".
dennis was dennis. i love his big ideas but don't feel the country is quite ready for him yet.
graham was badass. he came off as very knowledgeable and i am going to have to reconsider him as a serious contender for veep. no offense to graham supporters intended by my use of the veep word.
edwards came off sincere, but with big ideas and no way to accomplish them. *sigh* maybe in eight years johnny.
smackdown 2003 goes to our man dean for swatting joe lieberman. from my jaded perspective, i'm still hoping dfa hires a tv coach. we just can't underestimate the importance of tv to this process. i felt he did really well overall, much improved from the last debate. new viewers, well, they probably liked him a bit more after tonight. =)
Dana and Philly make great points -- I have heard, read and oft repeated Dean's stump speech -- so it's hard to judge. I still say not his best gig.
However, consider: expectations going in were: what will they shoot at Dean, and what will he do when they shoot? Come on, even Howard dean knew what was at stake, and we survived the night to retool.
By that measure alone, we are fine. His teardown of Lieberman (with fact) and htey boos (before Dean even responded) says much about the crowds love of Dean.
I do think Gep did well (and Kerry too) but: can you remember a damn thing kerry said? Or Gep for that matter beyond the words "miserable failure?" Okay, with Gep, a few more. But seriously, Mosley-Braun was great tonight (did I just wrrite that?)
Finally, can Kucinich do nothing but sneer? He looks so mean all the time.
And why such applause for him? Did he pack the house?
And what was with Joe-Joe's italian-mafiaso-suit look?
the New York Times article after the debate
Democratic Debate Likely to Benefit Dean
President Bush was an easy target. Too easy for eight presidential candidates who railed, in harmony, against White House policies in Thursday night's debate. In doing so, they failed to distinguish themselves from each other.
Their hands-off approach may have best served Howard Dean, the former Vermont governor who left the debate relatively unscathed and still the party's presidential front-runner.
``Dean kept his shine on,'' said Democratic strategist Donna Brazile who managed Al Gore's 2000 presidential campaign. ``Nobody took any of the gloss from the type of message and the type of campaign he's been running.'
``They all have to be careful'' about attacking each other, said Kathleen Sullivan, head of the Democratic Party in New Hampshire. ``Their job tonight was to introduce themselves to voters.''
``I don't think anybody had to win or lose tonight -- and nobody did.''
Each candidate could declare small victories in pushing forward their themes or massaging their images.
Waring Howe Jr., a prominent South Carolina Democrat, said he was impressed by the display. ``Who'd have thought Gephardt would be the feistiest of the bunch?'' he said.
Though Dean fared well in a toothless debate, some Democrats said he lacked his usual passion. Perhaps he's reading too many glowing political reviews.
``The man looks like he's running like a front-runner,'' Brazile said. ``That was not the real Dean. He was too cool. Maybe he missed Al Sharpton.''
Before tonight's debate I hadn't been following any of the canidates..and I have to say that Dean won me over. So regardless of his "winning" or "losing" tonight he has gained support.
thanks, lynn. i'd love to hear some of your impressions, especially since you say you've been won over.
welcome aboard the grassroots express!
Great! On that note Lynn, I'll say a comfortable goodnight!
HE
First, Lieberman ought to be ashamed of himself for that pathetic attack.
Second, this is a really hard format to define oneself. It'll get better when there aren't 27 people on the stage.
Third, Dean did really well in a very important way. He defused any Dean-against-Dean perceptions, as if his temper was his own worst enemy. Also, though I love the "miserable failure" and "Bush is dumb" attacks as much as the next Democrat, Dean is smart enough not to stoop to this level. Oh, he'll savage Bush's record, decisions, and actions, but notice he never hits the man personally. Yet Kerry and Gephardt and Lieberman and even Edwards do this. It's bad form. They ought to know that you don't win hearts and minds of undecided voters by calling your opponent a stupid failure. Kudos for the Dean team for realizing this, as did Clinton with Bush I.
I think Dean's rivals tried to capture Deanness themselves, but it all looked silly. While Dean offers real passion and tough, smart criticism, they can only do manufactured rage and mean put-downs.
Our man performed as befitting a front-runner.
from my jaded perspective, i'm still hoping dfa hires a tv coach. we just can't underestimate the importance of tv to this process.
yeah, we need that, but it's a media consultant dahling a broadcast media consultant. 
And if you had seen my double chin on the 11 o'clock news last night from our Meetup -- heck, I need one too! Yikes!
Debate FINALLY came on and ended here in Seattle (2200-2330). I agree with Anna and others: our guy did fine, but lacked his usual passion. I'm just glad he didn't explode or do that nasty smirk he had in the last one (Kucinich inherited it, looked like!). Gephardt was on fire, Dean needs to light up like that, like he does in his own rallies. I'm sure it will get better, esp. once we clear the field a little bit.
NICE PLUS: BBC World had a report on Dean right after. They were at the debate and picked him to run around with beforehand. It was a really good report, I'm glad the DFA folks let them into his fundraiser for the short interview (where he had some good zingers).
I agree completely with the fourth entry, Christopher. I too am a huge Dean fan but was greatly disappointed with him for exactly the same reasons. Recycled stump speeches, not answering the questions but using them to make a point he decided to make before he got there, not clarifying what he would do about immigration policy, etc., This is politics as usual and way beneath Dean. Study up on the issues, make some policy plans and speak from the heart. People will overlook any mis steps if you are honest. I thought we had already learned this.
Dean did all right-didn't cause any great harm, but definitely has to do better next time.
Advice from my wife;
Before next debate get a good neck and shoulder massage.
Be in the “now”
Forget speech rhetoric
Focus on the question-answer it.
Trust yourself
You’ll be a winner!!!
funny...i thought dean's reserve served to highlight the other candidates, who come across as exaggerated, phony and desperate in contrast.
dean depression? liberman wasn't talking about economy. he was talking about how dean was giving him the blues. quick, somebody get joe some prozac.
dean grinning in reaction to liberman's charge was perfect. that one grin told the audience lieberman's charge was opportunistic hyperbole not to be taken seriously.
oh, and that's the first time i ever heard dean say "corporate welfare". that phrase wasn't found in his economy-issues page either last time i read it. i thought that inclusion was interesting.
Wow. Well I watched most of it (had to ff through some of the more longwinded Gephardt and Lieberman stuff) along with my fiance, who isn't into this nearly as much as I am (doubt he can name more than two or three of the people running) and he said (in response to my commenting on how often he attacked Dean):
Yeah, Lieberman made himself look like a real dick tonight.
Ouch.
I also realized just who Kerry reminds me of. Anyone else remember the Muppet Show? Back in the 70's they had a blue bald eagle character named Sam. Put a poufy hairdo on him, and I swear that's Kerry.
Ouch.
I too agree with Mr. Curtis. I was just craving the Gov. to respond to the questions without hearing the stump speech doing the talking. He's got an excellent grasp of the issues but he feels a little stale and he could use a little slowing down so he can articulate the exact words he wants. All in all our guy did great but I would love to see him loosen up a bit and deliver his responses in a more conversational way.
Loved the suit though.
I hope the dfa staff reads these entries because there are some really good points being made here.
I loved the suit too and thought it made him look Presidential. He is a very smart man and I want that to shine through. What a great contrast it would be to W.
LOL. Now I'll never be able to see Kerry again without thinking "Sam the Eagle."