It's backbone, for sure. I know many Democrats who hate Gray Davis with a passion. A passion. And that could easily translate into a distaste for Dean, who has not only endorsed Davis but used the same rhetoric.

We haven't had a Democrat with this much backbone since I-don't-know-when. Certainly you could move Clinton around, pretty easily. Certainly the right destroyed Carter. Johnson refused to turn and he ended up like GWB is going to.

We shall have to see how it plays out. If California Deaniacs can get Gray Davis re-elected they can do anything.
Dana Blankenhorn | Email | Homepage | 09.06.03 - 7:45 pm | #

We haven't had a Democrat like Howard Dean since Harry Truman. People compare Dean to McCain, but Dean is closer to Truman in both speaking style and on social positions. McCain is too conservative for me.

On fiscal issues, Dean is conservative, but that's so we can fund the social programs that are needed.
Terry from Killingly, CT | Email | Homepage | 09.06.03 - 8:20 pm | #

Counter-intutive + + +'s for Dean:

- He shows he's a team player to the Dem establishment.

- He's the first Dem prez candidate with the guts to campaign with Davis.

- He likely had to fight his own staff on this, but did it because it was simply the right thing to do.

- Now, the other Dems in the race are in the uncomfortable position, yet again, of campaigning with Gray and seeming like the are a bunch of Dean "me-toos!"

- Dean, actually, is the first Dem on the National stage to campaign with Davis (if you exclude Feinstein) -- he was here first, before Bill, and before Hill.

- Even if Davis loses, Dean's base will not abandon him over this, and his reasons for opposing the recall are dead on. Yes, all the Dems are singing from the "Four R's" songbook -- but Dean just sings better, WAY better.

- Recent attempts by the press to imply that Dean is more "timid" as the frontrunner are dead. Call it what you will, but this shit ain't timid.

As a Californian and a Democrat, I have never been prouder of Howard Dean than I am today. What a guy! I think, in time, this will come to be seen as a defining moment in the campaign, no matter what happens to Gray Davis.

One last thing: Don't forget, there are two questions on the ballot, the first of which is yes or no on the recall. Dean hasn't really endorsed Davis, he's opposing the recall. Davis is not on the 2nd part, which is the selection of a replacement. On this question, Dean has taken no public position that I'm aware of as yet. Point being, Davis is NOT running against Cruz Bustamante, literally.
Scott Moore | Email | Homepage | 09.06.03 - 8:37 pm | #

Another note: this indicates that Dean is willing to send a signal to his base that their powwer is about much more than him, it's about CA, the USA, and the world.
Scott Moore | Email | Homepage | 09.06.03 - 8:50 pm | #

That is the 4th attempt to undemine democracy. Here's the 5th:


Sierra Club members, beware: Legislation has been introduced in many statesand
passed in Oklahomathat could define environmentalists and animal-rights
activists as "ecoterrorist" criminals. While ostensibly aimed at groups like
the Animal Liberation Front and Earth Liberation Front that advocate property
destruction, the legislation is so sweeping and nebulous it could also cover
nonviolent civil disobedience or even ordinary environmental activism.
(...)
A person giving money to such a group could be charged with abetting a crime;
holding a bake sale to support tree-sitters could be a terrorist offense.

http://www.sierraclub.org/sierra...200309/ lol6.asp

Click Homepage for more.
SCforDean | Email | Homepage | 09.06.03 - 9:20 pm | #

SC: Do the issues folks at DforA know about this yet? Cripes! That is some f***d up shit!
Scott Moore | Email | Homepage | 09.06.03 - 9:25 pm | #

Well, well! Trumanesque indeed. but let's not lose sight of the fact that Dean can also be compared to Reagan in his appeal to the rank and file of his party. I am no fan of Gray Davis by a long shot, nor of Cruz Bustamante, but Dean has balls and I admire that. It should play well in the South as well, I think.
==================
I got my sample ballot the other day; say what you will, we out here in California don't lack for choices! Notable for their names are Trek Thunder Kelly (business exec) and David Laughing Horse Robinson (tribal chairman); then there is the sumo wrestler (who better to wrestle with the state's problems?), the custom denture manufacturer (could he take a bite out of the deficit without biting bite off more than he could chew?), and the railroad switchman/brakeman (granted the main track of the Southern Pacific no longer runs through the Legislature, but he sounds like a natural to stop a runaway budget and get the state back on the right track!). I might vote for the Peace and Freedom candidate, but have to consider the write-in slot. Should I vote for me? For my worst enemy? For Howard Dean? Our cup runneth over, but our great-grandparents didn't get the recall law right. We need to fix it.
Alan in CA | Email | Homepage | 09.06.03 - 10:07 pm | #

ladies and gentlemen, the Democratic Party now has a national leader.
Joe Mariani | Email | Homepage | 09.06.03 - 10:35 pm | #

W O W!!
Dean never ceases to amaze me in his bravery and convictions.
Time to send him some more $$$$!
Ben in Redmond | Email | Homepage | 09.06.03 - 11:26 pm | #

I was at the minirally in S.F. today. Someone had a sign Dean liked: "Howard Dean for California Governor". Gray Davis is pretty much Pete Wilson without the racism, but I am voting No / Bustamante and Dean was right to speak out for the same.
CA Pol Junkie | Email | Homepage | 09.06.03 - 11:48 pm | #

from Scott Moore:

One last thing: Don't forget, there are two questions on the ballot, the first of which is yes or no on the recall. Dean hasn't really endorsed Davis, he's opposing the recall. Davis is not on the 2nd part, which is the selection of a replacement. On this question, Dean has taken no public position that I'm aware of as yet. Point being, Davis is NOT running against Cruz Bustamante, literally.

Statement from Tricia Enright, Communications Director, Dean for America:

“Like all good Democrats, Howard Dean has said from the beginning that Californians should vote no on the recall and retain Gray Davis as Governor. At the same time, Governor Dean believes it is important to ensure that a Democrat remains in the Governor’s office, so he would urge everyone to vote no and also to select Cruz Bustamante on the second ballot.”
buddhistMonkey | Email | Homepage | 09.07.03 - 1:43 am | #

I loathe Gray Davis, but Dean is doing exactly the right thing here. Good for him.
chase | Email | Homepage | 09.07.03 - 5:18 am | #

California is a losing Cause Dr. Dean

Going into a hornet’s nest with a fly swatter may seem brave to some, but to me it’s not only ill advised but foolish.

Howard you are losing focus of the campaign. Getting involved in California politics is a lose/lose proposition. This campaign looks like it's stumbling a bit and I wish it would revive the clarity it was showing just a few weeks ago.

Howard you're getting sidetracked and I can see no possible advantage. California is a political trouble spot, a spider web of problems that doesn't need an ex governor from New England sticking his nose in.

Supporting Gray Davis just to make a political point against George Bush is asking for trouble. Howard and the campaign lets get back to focusing on what's important. Your fuzzy stances of late on several issues are starting to attract attention.

You got off easy in the last debate, but what will happen if everyone decides to unload on you next time? Are you going to be ready with sharply defined answers that look more than just thinking them up on the spot? This time you need to appear more than “flat” or more than “ no harm done.”

Your California foray is stunningly stupid and dangerous with no up side no matter how things evolve there. Some may call it showing leadership, but then I say what kind of leadership, ie. George Bush.

My point is for you to show GOOD leadership and your California meddling shows inept leadership.

Please regroup. Focus, focus, focus.
Robert Deeble | Email | Homepage | 09.07.03 - 9:37 am | #

Democrats cry foul with the recall vote. They shouldn't because it's imbedded in California law. It's there for a reason, Gray Davis just forgot about it, to his own peril.

Below is a history of the law. If Californians don't like it then they can amend or eliminate the recall provision, but you can't blame Republicians for using it, if it's there.



CALIFORNIA RECALL LAW'S HISTORY

A special election on Oct. 10, 1911, under the leadership of reform Gov. Hiram Johnson, gave California voters the power to recall state elected officers, enact state laws and constitutional amendments by initiative, and repeal state laws by referendum.

RECALLS AND PROPOSITIONS - Although no recall of a statewide officer has ever made it to the ballot in California, the recall process is similar to the state's frequently used initiative process. California voters have approved numerous initiatives, including 1978's Proposition 13, which slashed property taxes and launched a tax revolt across the country, and 1994's Proposition 187 (search), which sought to outlaw many services to illegal immigrants but was largely overturned by the courts.

SIGNATURES REQUIRED - The main difference between qualifying a proposition and a recall is that a recall requires more signatures. While qualifying a proposed new law for the ballot requires valid signatures from 5 percent of the number of people who voted in the last gubernatorial election, qualifying a recall election requires signatures from 12 percent of the number of people who voted in the last election for the office being recalled. Recall proponents seeking to recall Davis need 897,158 signatures to get the measure on the ballot.

1,363,411 signatures were gathered for Davis's recall.
Robert Deeble | Email | Homepage | 09.07.03 - 9:55 am | #

As with his early and consistent opposition to the Iraq war, Howard Dean hasonce again showed not only uncommon political courage, but uncommon shrewdness as well. The man is capable of thinking more than one move ahead.

If Davis somehow survives the recall vote, Dean will get much of the credit ir his Lazarus-like recovery. Even if Davis loses, Dean will have established in the party's mind, and in the nation's, a reputation as a solid team player. Americans respect the sort of quarterback who runs downfield to throw a block, even (especially?) for an unpopular teammate.
Don Rogers | Email | Homepage | 09.07.03 - 10:26 am | #

Robert Deeble illustrates the risks in taking this stand.

But there are risks in any firm stand. Anything he says about anything will alienate someone.

So Dean went with his gut. If he loses Robert Deeble (or others) so be it.

Maybe he can get Robert back later.
Dana Blankenhorn | Email | Homepage | 09.07.03 - 10:56 am | #

As with his opposition to the Iraq war, Howard Dean has once again missed the boat. he is now backing an imbecile in Grey Davis.
This January Davis floated his proposed budget, by May he increased spending almost two BILLION and added another 2,000 government jobs. At a time when any half wit would have noticed the States budget problems.
Anyone checked out their car registration lately? Its skyrocketed and that's a fact. For you People out of state, this means a registration last year of $ 175.00 is now over $400.00.
Just two examples of good Democratic government in California.
If Mr. Dean's ideas are as far out of line as Grey Davis' God help America.
CA native soon to move | Email | Homepage | 09.07.03 - 11:13 am | #

Here in Illinois the state is cutting jobs. I sure wish that we were adding 2000 instead. We need those jobs.

Still, I wish Dean hadn't done this, but since he has, it's time to get on the team and support it. And I think Davis is an ungrateful asshole for not reciprocating. Shows you why he's facing recall. If I lived in California ( a lifelong dream), I would support Davis for Dean's sake, but vote yes on the recall in the booth.
Anthony Segredo | Email | Homepage | 09.07.03 - 11:32 am | #

It's not taking a stand if there isn't any risk. Week after week, our good doctor wins his own Backbone Award. I'm proud of his denouncing the use of the recall and the other neocon subversions of the democratic process. People need to see and stop this pattern before it gets out of hand.

I know Davis is a slimeball, and he should at least have the guts to endorse the new leadership in the Demo party, leadership he'll need to be allied with if he manages to keep his job. Whether Dean WANTS his endorsement is another question entirely. But the California recall statute, like the US impeachment clause, is intended to be used for removal from office for overt crimes and official malfeasance. They made a better case against Clinton than this, but ultimately there was no case at all, and Clinton and Davis both have ended up facing removal from their duly-elected positions for the crime of being unpopular with a narrowly-focused group of activists, who haven't had much trouble convincing a sufficient portion of the electorate to back their schemes to lend them a patina of legitimacy.

People like "CA native soon to move" are rightfully angry about the high cost of registering their car in CA, but, by focusing on particulars, often ignore the bigger picture. People complain about the condition of highways, schools and that there's never a cop when you need one, while they agitate for reductions in their property taxes. The money has to come from somewhere, and the people have to be hired to administer the programs. I'm not a "big government" advocate, but a pragmatist knows that you get only what you pay for. Unfortunately, in our system, there is one way to get much more than you pay for, and that is to have lots of money to start with.
tencentlife | Email | Homepage | 09.07.03 - 1:06 pm | #

buddhistMonkey: duh, I am SO lame. It was on the page in Matt's post! Sheesh.
Scott Moore | Email | Homepage | 09.07.03 - 1:23 pm | #

tencentlife,
I was sighting only two issues that are frustrating me in particular.
Here are a few more.
The 2000 jobs he created also came with a state budget increase of over 40%. I haven't recieved a 40% pay increase, in fact like most Californians the "reccession" has brought a significant decrease.
As to getting what you pay for. How about having 47% of each paycheck taken out in taxes? How much is enough for an individual to pay? $15,000.00,$20,000.00? We are paying. If it's not a tax on earnings it's a tax on gas, currently we pay almost 36 cents per gallon in taxes. Each ballot also brings it's share of Bond issues as well. I live in Santa Clara County, over the last six years every ballot has had a bond for "Education". We have spent tens of millions in these bonds, just at a County level. Where is the money going? What happened to the Lottery
?
I ask again, how much is enough?
CA native soon to move | Email | Homepage | 09.07.03 - 2:09 pm | #

CA Native: You should blame bush, not Davis.

Deeble: I think yu are dead wrong. Don Rogers (above) says it best:

As with his early and consistent opposition to the Iraq war, Howard Dean hasonce again showed not only uncommon political courage, but uncommon shrewdness as well. The man is capable of thinking more than one move ahead.

If Davis somehow survives the recall vote, Dean will get much of the credit ir his Lazarus-like recovery. Even if Davis loses, Dean will have established in the party's mind, and in the nation's, a reputation as a solid team player. Americans respect the sort of quarterback who runs downfield to throw a block, even (especially?) for an unpopular teammate.

I'm no fan of Davis, but the risks fro dean are minimal, and Deeble, think outside of the box! Are you (were you) supporting Howard Dean because he's mamby-pamby? He's not doing this to "prove" he's brave -- he's doing this because he IS brave. That's why I support Howard Dean.
Scott Moore | Email | Homepage | 09.07.03 - 3:13 pm | #

Anyone checked out their car registration lately? Its skyrocketed and that's a fact.

"ca native" is what happens when people get all their news from hate radio. people don't realize they are only getting one side of the story. hate radio blames EVERYTHING on davis. no mention is made of there being a contentious legislature where you have obstructionist republicans.

Democrats counter that increasing the car tax was a last resort after Republicans blocked other options to ease a record $38 billion state budget deficit. Now that the new car tax revenues are authorized, Democrats say, they can be swapped for different taxes with only a majority vote of the Legislature, requiring no Republican support -- because there would be no net increase in state revenues.

http://www.sacbee.com/content/po...p- 8193224c.html

the car tax was forced in the first place because republicans blocked every other option.

hate radio didn't go after pete wilson and republicans for pushing through deregulation. hate radio didn't go after enron for the blackouts. hate radio didn't blame energy companies gaming the system, manipulating supply and gouging rate payers. hate radio didn't blame FERC or bush for not capping runaway rates. EVERYTHING was blamed on red herring/all-purpose scapegoat gray davis instead. how do you think the residents of california would react if hate radio told the truth of who really screwed california?
niner | Email | Homepage | 09.07.03 - 3:14 pm | #

There is a difference between things being legal, and moral. Saying that the California recall is legal according to the law is true, but that's not the issue.

If you look at the letter of the law, then there's noting wrong with the recall. But, it was started against someone who was elected fair and square, and it was known that financial trouble was coming.

If you look at the letter of the law, there's nothing wrong with the Florida mess (the Supreme Court stopped the recount, and it's the highest judicial body around). But is stopping a vote count right? (not to mention the voter purging).

If you look at the letter of the law, the redistricting in Texas isn't wrong. Except that it has been done every 10 years, one year after the census. Which was 2001, and now suddenly they want to push through a new plan with some really, ehm, "creative" borders.

Looking at all these incidents together, you can still say "there's nothing legally wrong with it", and leave it at that. But you're letting yourself be pushed around by people who have no qualms about their intentions of establishing a permanent majority at any cost.

Last example: the special prosecutor mechanism was legally used by the right wing to smear Clinton. Legal according to the letter of the law? Sure. But moral? Hell no.

That kind of behavior must be stood up to.
Frank in A'dam | Email | Homepage | 09.07.03 - 3:19 pm | #

CA native soon to move, we pay 37.5 cents a gallon in Illinois.

Is the education money well spent? I rather doubt it from what I've heard of CA education. But have you supported alternate slates for board of education?
This is where attention needs to be focused. Not on "the government", but on the specific elected board whose actions you don't like.

Here in U-46 school district (second largest public in IL), voters recently overwhelming rejected a tax increase in large part because of disgust with malfeasance. Then they RE-ELECTED the same people to the board! The board is pushing the same tax increase for the March primary, saying that it failed because, "voters were ignorant". I'll say!
Anthony Segredo | Email | Homepage | 09.07.03 - 3:21 pm | #

I see Dean's support not only as the right thing to do, but also strategically planned. As most people are aware, Davis has the widespread support of many unions in California, and that he is a prolific fundraiser despite having the charisma of a bag of hair.

Meanwhile, on the national scene, Dean is about to win the SEIU endorsement out from under labor-fav Gephardt and Sen. Kerry. If you view these developments in concert Dean's appearance in support of Davis, the forthcoming decision by certain California labor leadership, and Davis's possible availability as a fundraiser in the general, it all starts to make sense. Dean appears with Davis to 1) help Davis keep his job and 2) Davis leverages his labor ties to help Dean score the SEIU and other endorsements. If the recall goes through and Davis is replaced, then he's free to help Dean rake in the cash to beat back Bush in 2004 (not that he wouldn't be inclined to help otherwise).

If you're wondering about the California labor connection, check out DailyKos.com for an extensive post on how labor, California, and Dean are all coming together.
Barrett in MN | Email | Homepage | 09.07.03 - 3:51 pm | #

One other note: if Davis loses the recall, well, he might find a home somewhere in a....Dean administration? Just a guess.
Scott Moore | Email | Homepage | 09.07.03 - 4:05 pm | #

One more thing.. remember that all Dem candidates were already saying what Dean repeated while actually being in California. They signed a letter speaking out against the recall, and also said so at one of the forums they were at.

Dean has been the only one to put his money where his mouth is, and follow up on that. Unwise? Who knows. But I like it.

Oh yeah, if the recall had actually been started by disgruntled voters, and not by a rich Republican who seemed interested in it as a career move, it would have been a different situation, of course.
Frank in A'dam | Email | Homepage | 09.07.03 - 4:26 pm | #

To add to what I said above, consider the dynamics of the CA recall with respect to the presidential nomination race.

As soon as one major Democrat comes out visibly against the recall, all the other Democratic candidates will be forced by the press to take a clear stand. As none of them can very well support the recall, Dean's political risk here is really much less than it appears.

But the credit for opposing the recall will accrue predominantly to the Democrat who did it first: Dean. Dean has done the right thing here. AND the smart thing.
Don Rogers | Email | Homepage | 09.07.03 - 4:33 pm | #

The fault of Gray Davis isn't the results so much as his arrogance and his seemingly indifference and his blatant and hamfisted methods of raising money.

If you couple that with the terrible economy in California, Davis shouldn't have been surprised at the recall attempt.

You can be sure from now on that a governor of California will pay attention to that.

Do I think recall is a good idea? No I don't. BUT it is the law.

Recalls should be for crimes not perceptions or for being a bad governor, BUT that isn't how the law in California works.

Many say it circumvents Democracy. I say this IS California’s form of Democracy. The people supported it and as they say in any court, "ignorance of the law is no excuse"

Politically, I'm not happy with the events unfolding there, but if that is the law then the Democrats should just get on and stop whining about the recall.

Poor governorship and leadership brought this on, nothing else. Davis could have weathered the bad times if he had a better managerial style and a better personally.

Republicans took advantage of both and a down economy. If the shoe had been on the other foot I have no doubt the Democrats would have done the same thing.
Robert Deeble | Email | Homepage | 09.07.03 - 5:07 pm | #

Many seem to think by electing a Republican in California it will effect the general election in 2004. May be in other times it would but not this time.

California is overwhelmingly Democratic.

Don't you think that a Republican would have a difficult time governing when the legislature is Democratic.

The governor’s hands are tied in more ways in California than in other state governments, because of California’s structure of government.

A Republican would still face the unsolveable problems that Davis faced.

The only thing that will save California is a revived economy. Nothing else will work that the public will accept.

For Dean to associate with a widely despised politician looks unwise. Are we so indoctrinated as to think EVERY democrat is worth supporting? Don’t we have some kind of measure to determine who to support and who not to? From comments here concerning Joe Lieberman it seems that we do. Because Davis may have offered support to Dean doesn’t mean Howard should go out on a limb to retrieve it.

Every endorsement, even left unsaid, doesn’t mean it is worthwhile to pursue.
Robert Deeble | Email | Homepage | 09.07.03 - 5:09 pm | #

Whether I'm right or wrong will become apparent soon enough.

I think Howard is going too far afield for someone not even nominated yet. This shows a little too much arrogance, and Dean is not perfect enough to be displaying that.

If he had nailed the last debate I'd give him a pass on this California issue ( probably not) but he looked pretty shakey at times,and hardly anyone was pressuring him that much.

First things first. California is nothing more than a unhealthy diversion for the political process and for Dean.

Let's get back to basics, that's were Dean made his mark.
Robert Deeble | Email | Homepage | 09.07.03 - 5:10 pm | #

For Robert Deeble.

I am curious...what is your definition of "nailing" the last debate? Robert Oler

Posted by Robert Oler at September 7, 2003 12:35 PM

***********************

If you read the recent post you'll see what I mean.

*********************

Following the time-honored columnist's political philosophy -- Kick 'Em When They're Up -- four potentially serious problems were in evidence Thursday night in addition to the Dean camp's poor judgment in slipping him a tranquilizer:

He has to decide if more or fewer of which kinds of troops need to be in Iraq to oversee its reconstruction and resumption of sovereignty. Dean supporters get angry at those who say he has been urging more troops and they are correct that there is no explicit quotation to that effect.

However, clarity is not his strong suit here. Dean's comment Thursday was that more troops are needed for security but that they should be from other countries and Iraq itself. His direct quote -- "ours need to come home" -- was unsettling because it implied advocacy of withdrawal as opposed to internationalization. Take a day, Howard, and figure it out.

Dean also continues to be annoyingly flippant and unresponsive in response to criticism of his advocacy of the repeal of all the Bush-era tax cuts -- including provisions like the child tax credit, lower and broader bottoms rates, and marriage penalty easing that benefit low and middle-income Americans.

At times his campaign has accused his critics of desperation, at others he has labeled them part of the deficit-producing mess in Washington. Thursday he tried to belittle the criticism by offhandedly claiming that most middle-income people at most got a hundred dollars or so in tax cuts -- a patently false assertion that ignores a serious issue.

Dean either needs to think through the critical issue of international trade thoroughly or concentrate on expressing himself clearly. He had little trouble deflecting a shot from Joe Lieberman that he was advocating that other countries mirror US labor, environmental, and human rights before they can be worthy of free-trade deals.

However, his assertion that he advocates that the standards of the International Labor Organization be applied -- but either the ILA or American law would be fine with him -- lacked the clarity one expects from Dean. Even more unsettling was his holding up of the policies of the notoriously protectionist European Union as a model. The point here is that one looks to presidents for leadership on tough issues like trade, and it is impossible in this world to be multilateralist on security issues and unilateralist on economic concerns.

********************

At the Debate Dean didn't show a firm command of these issues. The fact that there were so many participants to question masked Dean deficiencies, to some degree.

If he'd been up against Bush he would have been killed.

Bush may be wrong, but he's decisive and Howar
Robert Deeble | Email | Homepage | 09.07.03 - 5:12 pm | #

continued...
Bush may be wrong, but he's decisive and Howard can't appear to be less than that.

**************
PS apologies to the poster of comments I borrowed. I didn't get your name
Robert Deeble | Email | Homepage | 09.07.03 - 5:14 pm | #

Just in case someone might misunderstand my postion on Howard Dean I'm reposting a comment written last week on the O-blog. My comments about Dean & California are because, DAMN, I want him to win!

I mention details here. Details; tending to them or ignoring them can have mixed consequences.I wrote this in response to Dean's less than stellar performance in the debate and the criticism that followed, even by me.

*** ** ***

I'm always ready to raise alarm bells about Dean, for the simple reason I want him to get elected and I don't want to see another Gore type election.

You're not going to get anyone better than Howard Dean.

And that doesn't mean he's the best of a bad bunch.

You may never see another Man running for President as qualified and honest as Dean, in your life time.

To be sure Howard Dean is a "rough around the edges" kind of guy. That is, he isn't spit and polish, phoney or trite.

Everyone here needs to stand back, waaaay back and see the WHOLE picture.

I'm not going to argue for or against anything particular that Dean said past or present.

I've seen this guy in action for 12 years and there isn't anyone better for the times we are facing.

Don't get caught up with details, because details change as circumstances change.

Appreciate and understand that Howard Dean not only is the best candidate for president, he's the best person.

And this is from someone ( me ) that has no illusions or blind faith about Howard Dean. What you see is what you get, and I like what I see.
Robert Deeble | Email | Homepage | 09.07.03 - 5:18 pm | #

So far the campaign has made the right moves.

Against what I feel, I hope and pray the campaign knows what it's doing now.
Robert Deeble | Email | Homepage | 09.07.03 - 5:25 pm | #

Poor governorship and leadership brought this on, nothing else. Davis could have weathered the bad times if he had a better managerial style and a better personally.

Nope, it was 2 million of Issa's money. Davis is no great shakes, but you are totally off base. And Deeble, re-read Dean's statement, hardly whining.

Republicans took advantage of both and a down economy. If the shoe had been on the other foot I have no doubt the Democrats would have done the same thing.

If that's so true (and it isn't, for 100 years there has never been a only know that in an era of paid sig gatherers and an institutionalized initiative process did it become feasable) then why didn't Pete Wilson get recalled? Answer: no Democrat could, or would, pony up 2 mil.

Many seem to think by electing a Republican in California it will effect the general election in 2004. May be in other times it would but not this time. California is overwhelmingly Democratic.

Hope you are right, but if that's true, why are Arnold and Cruz neck-and-neck with only on Dem on the ballot? You are missing the independent and DTS factor.

Don't you think that a Republican would have a difficult time governing when the legislature is Democratic.

Of course, but that give them something to run against. Remember Clinton? Deeble, are you daft?

I really wish you would take the time to read other's comments instead of just repeating yourself over and over. It seems to me that most of your comments are highly critical of Dean, and not in a constructive way at all.

Are you with Dean or not? Because the whining I'm tiring of is not that of Dean or Davis -- it's yours.
Scott Moore | Email | Homepage | 09.07.03 - 6:34 pm | #

I too was disappointed in Dean's debate performance, because I expected to see him show how quick he is on his feet next to the other seven, several of whom I expected to just throw off predictable sound-bites like the politicians they are. "Ours need to come home" was a dangerous sound-bite to throw out there, because taken out of context it would seem to be saying he wanted to abandon Iraq. So far, thankfully, I haven't seen any news outlet exploit that one.

Overall, I would say he did no more harm to himself than any of the others did to themselves, but he missed a chance to shine. I was in Albuquerque, and at the pre-debate rally (the ONLY candidate rally that day, I might add. Our support and organization is like nothing you'll ever see), Dean seemed distracted and slightly tense. I expected as much because of all the preparation he must have been doing to go into battle. Afterwards, he spoke with us again, and the change was dramatic: back to his old self, natural, relaxed, gregarious, joking with the crowd and not afraid to admit a lack of familiarity with the Digital Millenium Copyright Act in response to a question about it. He needs more camera time, and a bit of coaching, so he can relax and have a clearer head under that kind of pressure. If he can learn to convey his enjoyment of people and his ease with his own positions in a formal setting, he can't help but win viewers over to his side. It's important to remember that it was that quality that made so many voters like Bush. That first debate was just a how-do-you-do for them all, and nobody could really expect a substantive airing of differences with such a big field. But they're going to get tougher, and the field will narrow.
tencentlife | Email | Homepage | 09.07.03 - 6:38 pm | #

Scott Moore:

I have read the other statements Scott and I wish you wouldn't resort to implied or other derogatory comments. I have my opinion and you have yours.

Yes the Democrats whine. I didn't say Dean was whiny. Don't you read carefully either?

I'm sure I was with Dean before you. but that's neither here nor there.

How are my comments destructive? ( not constructive)

How can someone wanting the campaign to be as good AND smart as it can be, be destructive?

When I see something I believe to be wrong I say so.

What threatens you about my comments. That someone would read them and not support Dean?

Well then they wouldn't support him anyway, if they are basing their decision on my comments or anyone else’s comment on this blog.

And yes I'll continue to be a thorn in your side or the campaigns if necessary and despite your feelings about me, I'm still voting for Dean!
Robert Deeble | Email | Homepage | 09.07.03 - 7:07 pm | #

I have nothing more to say to Deeble you, my comments as above stand.
Scott Moore | Email | Homepage | 09.07.03 - 7:24 pm | #

Scott,

You've obviously missed the many positive comments I've had for Dean.

I would estimate I'm about half -glowing Dean comments and half critical Dean comments.

If all the campaign wants are "Ditto heads" then I guess I'm not one.

But I don't think that's what they want from Dean supporters. Even though they may cringe at criticism of Dean, it has offered the campaign a useful tool in which to gage how the public reacts.

If everyone just spouted gun drops and roses the campaign would always have to be perfect.

The various blogs help keep the Dean people planted in reality.

Just because I was the only one here today that didn't agree about Dean's California foray doesn't mean I'm wrong.

Remember, a long time ago everyone was saying how wrong Howard Dean was to be aginst the war.
Robert Deeble | Email | Homepage | 09.07.03 - 7:25 pm | #

robert --

oliphant doesn't take into account the factor of pacing. dean can't afford to burn out before it counts. that finish line is still along way off.

Republicans took advantage of both and a down economy. If the shoe had been on the other foot I have no doubt the Democrats would have done the same thing.

your proof? when have democrats ever burned through $60 million (or more) in order the undermine the choice of the electorate? $60 million that could have gone to schools when they are cutting teachers and classes and when healthcare services are getting cut. repubs scoffed at what was sacrificed in order to get their recall. when have democrats ever been as ruthless?

you quote 1 million plus signed the recall but 8 million voted for gray davis. the recall may be legal but when 1 million get to overule the choice of 8 million, that isn't honoring the spirit of democracy.
niner | Email | Homepage | 09.07.03 - 7:26 pm | #

Deeble: I too criticize Dean -- it's the spirit that's different. See my comments on the debat thread and you'll see that I'm hardly some "Dean-clone" (speaking of name-calling).

No, it doesn't mean you are wrong -- but your constant insistence that you absoulutely are right and we just need to stand back and see the WHOLE picture the way that YOU do is irritating, and you do it quite a bit on a variety of topics, with multiple multiple multiple very long posts in a row.

Few others here do that, and I think you should take a step a back and see that you are not the only one in the room. This is not the opinion of Dean Nation, but it is my opinion.

I enjoy debate, but I don't enjoy your righteous indignation of others. I don't agree with many folks here, and they don't agree with me, but at least we are having a conversation.
Scott Moore | Email | Homepage | 09.07.03 - 7:40 pm | #

"you quote 1 million plus signed the recall but 8 million voted for Gray Davis. the recall may be legal but when 1 million get to overule the choice of 8 million, that isn't honoring the spirit of democracy"

Niner,

I'm not arguing with you on the point your making. I'm observing that this is what the California public wants. If it's a mistake then let them change the law.

So far I haven't heard anyone suggest changing the law.

Until Californians change the recall law then I have to assume that they agree that it's a good law to have.

Recalls have been tried before in California, but never enough signatures were taken to have one actually take place.

What I don't understand from the crowd here today is why they are defending a politician with a 22% approval rating and want to marry him Howard Dean?

The Republicans didn't make Gray Davis have a 22% approval rating. They just took advantage of it under a law that the California electorate supports.

Nobody here likes the mechanics of Recall. If someone can prove to me that the California voters don't approve of the recall then I'll rescind my argument.

Actually the voters will have their say on the ballot.
Robert Deeble | Email | Homepage | 09.07.03 - 7:49 pm | #

Well Scott,

My debate today was on the o-blog.

My spate of emails, outside of the first one was my accummulation from today.

As I read through the opposing comments here I decided to spin out everything I wrote today all at once.

Sorry to have irritated you, but that's the story.
Robert Deeble | Email | Homepage | 09.07.03 - 7:56 pm | #

the $60 million cost of the new special election...

(that counties have to bear the brunt of, some of which can ill afford it)

isn't even taking into account the economic cost to the state. business doesn't like uncertainty. this recall acts to put the brakes on california's economic recovery.

repubs once again put the interests of the few above the interests of the many.
niner | Email | Homepage | 09.07.03 - 8:02 pm | #

Deeble writes: What I don't understand from the crowd here today is why they are defending a politician with a 22% approval rating and want to marry him Howard Dean?

And you say that you've read the comments here? Read my first post. It's no about "defending" Davis really, but representative Democracy. It's not about "marrying" Dean and Davis -- that's ridiculous. Tell you what, why don't you read my "counter-intuitive" points in my first comments post here, and perhaps you'll get it -- and perhaps you won't.

And as for the "campaign knowing what it's doing" -- well guess what? Campaigns are about risks, some work, some don't, and I think this was a good risk, clearly you do not.

Niner: Agreed, agreed, and agreed.

Nuff said. I'm bored with this thread, over and out.
Scott Moore | Email | Homepage | 09.07.03 - 8:22 pm | #

Scott,

I'm sure your not reading this but yes I'm aware that Dean did not come out and endorse Gray Davis.
I read that carefully in the newspaper today.

But when Dean is photographed with Gray Davis I don't think most people are as careful as you to make that distinction.

And while Dean may be "defending democracy" (and maybe you should read my post about what Californians want)
as I stated before I have not heard a great outcry from the voters about the unfairness or the subversion of democracy.

I've heard it from Democrats but not from the public at large.

You seem to think that I'm missing the point.

I see your point.

Nobody here likes the mechanics of Recall.(or the waste of limited California resources (money) ) But as I stated earlier,if someone can prove to me that the California voters don't approve of the recall then I'll rescind my argument.

I always thought of Democracy as "government by the people"

I don't know it seem fruitless to continue but I thought recall was supported by the California Electrote.

Yes I'm well aware that a minoity can call the shots in California politics, but THAT IS California politics. All of the propositons that are passed are all started by a minoity.

But a majority has to pass them and so it will be with Recall. A majority has to reject Davis, for a recall election to take place, so where is Democracy subverted? The voters will have their say.

If you don't like that method of politics then someone get the Californian voters to change it.

I don't think you'll be able too.
Robert Deeble | Email | Homepage | 09.07.03 - 8:57 pm | #