Empirical evidence suggests that an overwhelming majority of C-SPAN Washington Journal callers (Dem. and Rep., black and white, male and female) this morning do not think Howard Dean should apologize for his "flag" comment. In fact, they say that Dean is right. Judging from John Edwards' statements last night during the buckshot bash, I have to admit that I thought that most southern callers would skewer Dean, too. Instead, these callers responded with admiration and support. Go Dean!
fafnir, I did not catch CSpan this am but I am not in the least surprised. This is what I expected.
Edwards himslef played (for kindness I will assume it was play acting) a southern stereotype last night, and not a pretty one. Yeah, it was shades of the 60's, what the nice white folks (and some blacks too see Martin's Letter from a Birmingham Jail) said to the efforts made to pull the south into the present and hopefully the future. And that ws a struggle that had to be - as we all know.
To anyone who has spent a great amount of time over decades in the south, it nearly cannot be explained to a strict geographical northerner (or westerner). From the minute the flap broke over the slight, slight deviation in wording (and others' losign campaigns, never discount a losing campaign or three) in the telephone interview in the Des Moines Register, I have been happy, meant it would be spread thru the south with a spatula. No one speaks to those people, I firmly believe ONLY good can come of this. I always have felt it means positive votes.
And I will relook at this in a week, then again, I expect this to get better as time goes on.
Does Howard need some compressed time with a top notch debate coach, Yes.
I can understand the genuine resentment people feel toward display of the Confederate flag, and the notion that it is an American symbol akin to the Nazi swastika. But part of me would also like to hear someone - maybe Jesse Jackson - stand up and say that we have a lot bigger problems to deal with than symbols. There are healthcare disparities in the U.S. that are devestating. Studies have shown in some communities in America death and disease rates worse than in third world countries. When that is going on, why are we wasting time on comparitively trivial issues like the Confederate flag?
there were callers on yesterday's talk of the nation (the first hour) accusing the press including npr of downplaying the democrats. i recommend listening to tuesday's hour. dean is definitely getting the al gore treatment because the stenographers in the media are too lazy and stupid to think outside the box.
When you play on the field of symbols you're playing on their field.
Play on your field. Change the game.
Edwards' rant :"we don't need the likes of him coming down here and telling us what to do"
is EXACTLY the attitude that Howard is addressing(feeling cornered and misunderstood). Many people see the Confed. flag as a symbol
of a pride and dignity that once was. The Fact that this racist symbol still holds sway is a testament to their
disenfranchisement and to the effectiveness of GOP politics of division and disinformation for decades. Howard got it right the 3rd and 4th time
last night....he'll have to polish up a bit.... keep pushing Howard, America is a country not a bunch of regions where others are not welcome.
Your attempts to bridge are true Dem., and Edwards' regionalist rant was pure GOP.
Last night's debate made me realize that Dean really needs to simplify his strategy. He is losing people by being too obtuse and off-message.
What I suggest is a very simple new strategy for responding to attacks related to specific statements. Instead of refusing to admit any imperfection in his verbage and then launching awkwardly into played-out portions of his old stump speech, Dean needs to follow a simple two step program.
1) Say something like, "Yeah, I may not have worded that quite right. Sometimes, in the heat of the moment, I'll say something about half as inflammatory as your average White House press release."
2) Say, "As you are well aware, John, my point was this: (INSERT THE POINT, as clear and brief as possible, without going into the stump speech).
Then optional #3) Since I've got so much time left, let me just thank John for his petty, superficial attack. I'm grateful for every opportunity to get my real points across.
Successfull execution of this strategy requires only two things.
1) You've got to know what the basic points are, boiled down as simply as possible, like the Republicans do. What are the basic messages of this campaign?
2) Some balls.
The campaign has to get off auto-pilot NOW. Simplify the rhetoric in a major way. Improvise occasionally. Remain painfully honest, but be simpler about it.
I agree with "pete" about strategy for replying to attacks.
Who is coaching Howard and how do we get our message to Trippi?
Here's what America needs to see: Eight candidates rambling interminably, and one candidate (Howard Dean) who is so brief and clear that he sticks out.
This is his strength anyway!
Yeah, I wish I knew how we could get stuff like this to the campaign.
dana, you nail it as usual. my only problem with last night was dean not being able to get his message across in a soundbite (which is all these debates really provide time for). i absolutely agree with the message he's sending. we MUST bridge this gap. we CANNOT cede the south.
"Populism is a movement of poor farmers and laborers."
Populism today is a middle class movement in this country. Bill Clinton understood that. You people think you can win blacks and poor people in the South, add in some Emory votes and you'll win. Wrong! Wrong!! Wrong!!!!
I'm so frustrated with you guys.
Woah, Chad Peterson, why so frustrated? I agree with you that these purported roots of populism are slightly inaccurate and somewhat irrelevant, but why are you so mad?
We're all just trying to put the puzzle together in our own heads. Everybody's got a different way of doing this, but there's no need for such frustration.
I completely disagree with all of these categorizations. With his example of the guys with confederate flags on their trucks, Dean was not describing a demographic he dearly hopes to reach. All he was saying was that we need to bring our message (specifically, universal health care and better public schools) to EVERYONE, EVEN the guys with confederate flags etc.
He was saying that he's not going to focus on demographics in the way politicians tend to do, isolating people into two groups: those who are worthy of hearing our agenda, and those who aren't. He was saying that he hopes to get our message to every individual he can, no matter how unlikely they seem to be to appreciate it.
Use this link to give the campaign feedback. Will Trippi read it? I don't know, but someone is reading these things, so give it a try.
http://www.deanforamerica.com/
si...DeanontheIssues
Populism was, beginning in the 1890's, a movement of poor farmers and laborers. In our times, to my eye, it has been impossible to so clearly categorize. The term has been used conveniently in various ways, such that it is pretty hard to pin down what it refers to anymore, and one has to look at who is using it to decipher their meaning. Most often, anymore, it seems to be used as a pejorative to describe politicians who use their rhetoric to present an image of being for the "common folk", whoever they happen to be at the time, while he is actually serving his big-money masters.
Chad, I gather from your posts on this and other threads here that you are speaking, and credibly I believe, for a middle-class segment of the white southern populace. Perhaps you're from Atlanta, one of the fastest growing economies in the country throughout the last decade, that growth incorporating some of the sizeable migration of northerners to southern cities, currently the biggest demographic shift in the US. You argue as if that is a very important demographic for the Dems to attract, and I have no doubt that you are right in that. But could it be that you are as unfamiliar with the attitudes of the many southern rural voters, as well as ones who live in other cities that haven't had such healthy economies of late, as northerners are of your own?
I agree with tencentlife in the sense that the "populism" may not be term Dean wants to be associated with. It certainly does have negetive connotations.
Pete's suggestion for strategy is spot on, imo. I had a similar thought last night while watching the debate. One of Dean's most appealing qualities is his tendency to be self depracating at times -- yeah, I'm cheap; yeah, I'm blunt and sometimes say things that make my staff go nuts; yeah, I can be a little prickly but you'll never get a canned answer from me, etc.
which highlights one of his greatest strengths -- that he's not a PR creation or at least doesn't come off that way most of the time, despite having media advisers like any other candidate
I totally agree that simplicity of message/soundbiting is the key. And altho I don't think HD has anything to apologize for re the flag comments, it would cost him nothing to apologize *for hurting anyone's feelings* without apologizing for his statements/message which have been taken out of context and demagogued by his rivals. His third reply on the issue at last night's debate was the right answer -- invoking MLK and RFK, talking about bridging divides, etc.
By the way, did anyone else notice how Kerry was practically drooling and grinning as Sharpton attacked Dean? SICK.
Also FYI -- at the rally out front before the debate, Dean got by far the most cheers as he entered the hall.
There's a wince-worthy picture in the Boston Herald (right wing rag) this morning of Dean and Clark yelling at each other during commercial break. I thought HD handled himself incredibly well last night -- didn't lose his temper (on camera at least) and showed his humorous side on numerous occassions (the buckshot comment was great altho I, like many other commenters, would love it if he'd retire the teacher/bathroom thing. Mention you were a teacher, fine. But leave out the bathroom thing. Not funny.) But per usual the media, especially the right wing media, loves the conflict story. As much as possible, the campaign needs to not give the media ammo for that game. Altho I must say I was shocked that Paula Zahn of all people actually defended HD and challenged Kerry and Edwards last night. Normally she gives me an ulcer but she was actually half way decent last night. Will wonders never cease?
I hope that Trippi is reading this blog and a devastating critique by Counterspin Blog at http://counterspin.blogspot.com/
...804270283416894
Also lIberal Oasis has some negative commentary.
My reaction was mixed. I agree with his position and message but not on style of response. Overal though I think this will be a net POSITIVE in the general election, assuming he makes it there.
A few southern states can be won by stressing economic and health care issues.
Dean is not the polished campaigner that Clinton was (now known as "Slick Willie") but he is right on the issues as Clinton was. He is headed in the RIGHT direction just needs to adjust tactics and style.
Overall this could become Dean's "Sister Soljah" moment if it is handled right. He has already quasi apoligized in his speech in NY today. Sorry if I offended - but what I said was correct line.
The next 30 days is the critical phase of the campaign. Most of the other candidates are only identified as to how they position themselves against Dean and NOT in how they stand on issues. This is a losing strategy for them. Clark has the best chance of unseating Dean. I still support Dean but I am waiting to see if Clark can fix his campaign problems?
Chad may not know the median family income in America. It's about 40k. That's it. Half of America is BELOW that.
Sounds pretty poor to me. Sorry to be pejorative, but it's hard to raise a family of four on 40k.
If you say, go to 60, you've got two-thirds of families below that figure, two-thirds!
There was a nasty critique of Dean's people put out recently -- they called us the "Starbucks Ghetto." Rich, white, suburban, liberal, Clueless about the real world.
Well, 40k for a family of 4 is the real world. Right now those people are voting for Bush, overwhelmingly.
That's what we have to turn around.
Well said, Dana.
I thought Paula Z was offensive and off-target as usual, although she was equally offensive to all the interviewees. Kerry was clearly exasperated that all her questions were about Dean.
I was coming around to liking Edwards but he was awful last night. I thought he might leap over the divider and get all up in Dean's grill. And his video, talk about pandering.
Sharpton crossed the line as well. It's clear that he's pissed at Dean for getting the support of Jesse Jr.
I read somewhere that CNN screened the questions - really? Could we have any more ridiculous questions? Mac or PC, haha, who would you want to party with? Come on. One or two for comic relief but there were too many with zero substance.
I am tired of these debates. They lack substance, they are not productive, there are too many people up there to have any meaningful back and forth!
It is VERY IMPORTANT to remember that not every single line will have applause, and not every single answer will be the absolute best. Dean is correct in his assessment, though his defense left much to be desired. Remeber, folks, we support Dean for his ACTIONS as doctor and governor, not for some answer in some debate in Boston. There is a bigger picture, and Dean realizes this better than any candidate out there - including Bush!
yeah, Edwards' video was LAME and WEAK
I thought Dean's and Kerry's videos were both very good altho I loved the MTV quality of Dean's -- and the empowering message
I agree with plasmastate. Recall all the post Russert doom and gloom back in June and look how that turned out for our guy. 
I thought Dean's "apology" in NYC today was good. And sounds like Edwards thought it was sufficient so maybe that'll take care of it.
It would be nice if the population only looked at a candidates ACTIONS and voted based on that. But until that ideal world makes itself evident, Dean still needs to rely on being well-informed, quick witted, and have his views so ingrained in his head that he can quickly and intentionally rebut with aplumb any attack he may receive. I don't call that slick, I don't call that trained. I call it Presidential.
I'll bet that Dean's name recognition stats have gone up, and not necessarily for the worse, especially considering the shameless pandering and/or divisiveness demonstrated by other candidates.
In fact, Dean's forcefulness about this issue inspired me to send in yet another healthy contribution to the Dean coffers! I don't believe that I was alone in this reaction.
"Play on your field. Change the game."
- absolutely right Dana. This whole thing is a trap and it's time to get out. I hope Dean's statement today will end this but I fear the "apology" only reinforces the stereotype of Democrats who cave as soon as one of it's interest groups cries foul.
On the larger issue of the "southern vote" it's a waste of time and money. There are two realities here:
1. No Democrat will win a single southern state. It has always been necessary to drag them kicking and screaming to achieve anything progressive. Southern Democrats fought Roosevelt, Truman and Johnson almost as hard as they fought Lincoln.
2. No Democrat needs to win a single southern state. The northeast, mid-atlantic and far west are as solidly Democratic as the south is Republican. The gemeral election will be fought and won in the industrial mid-west.
Nothing wrong with wanting votes of poor whites, just not racist poor whites, which whether you can see through the sand enough to tell is what Dean's comments imply? Pull your head up little ostrich and see that Dean has never been what people thought he was.
It's probably not possible to change any non-southern minds about why many white southerners (poor and not-so-poor) do prefer Robert E.Lee to Lincoln, and have some affection for their confederate history including their flag. Calling us all racist (there are some, of course ) is as untrue as it is unproductive for any progressive political cause in the south.
I favor universal health insurance, women's choice, taxing the rich to balance the budget, strict corporate regulation, affirmative action, etc. Many of my southern cousins and friends share these progressive views, even if we own a flag or two.We have much in common and could beat the right wing Republicans if the Democratic party would stop alienating us by sneering at our history and culture. Howard Dean, wittingly or unwittingly, reached out to us. Edwards, with his politically correct rant, has ruined his political life in NC.
Mark: I think Dean's comments at Cooper Union were spot-on. They weren't an apology. He apologized for others' misunderstanding.
As to whether Dean can win the South, I don't know. I know no one else can. And by bringing up these issues in the way that he is, Dean at least makes Bush defend the South. In defending the South, Bush might antagonize people in the north and west.
By fighting the existing racism of the South, in other words, Dean can win the election in the North, even without a single southern state.
That's how LBJ did it.
tencentlife, I grew up in a small town in S. Georgia - population around 5,000. I went to Georgia Tech and have remained in Atlanta. So I believe I know the country folks because I grew up with them. I know the Yankees because I went to college with them. And I know the Atlantans because I live with them.
The people I don't know as well are metro-Atlanta blacks. In a small town you come into contact with black people on a fairly regular basis. They're your neighbors or at least two blocks away. If you go to public schools, you get to know them well and understand how they view things. In Atlanta, the city is much more like a Detriot or Chicago in that I don't deal with many black people on a personally level very often. They think and view things differently than the blacks I grew up with. I can't predict their behavior.
Dana, I am aware of the median income. I haven't seen a median income of people who consistently vote. I believe it to be higher, however.
Thanks for the background, Chad, and for not taking insult with my presumptions. Your history is a bit broader than I guessed, but I guess I wasn't entirely off the mark, either. I merely asked that question because in some of your earlier posts you seemed to be speaking as a more urban or suburban working class person. It helps to have a picture of where a person is from to understand their attitude, and you don't get much of that prima facie on the internet.
We face a similar divide here in NM, where one third of the 1.8 mil population lives in the Albuquerque metro area, one third of the rest in four other cities, and the balance are scattered all over remote areas of a very large state. We have the oldest agricultural traditions in the US in our northern half, which are solidly Democrat, a moderately conservative block in the Albuquerque area, with defense contractors and Intel counterbalanced by the liberal UNM establishment, and a lot of knee-jerk conservatives in ranching and gas & oil in the south. Our 3-person House delegation reflects this pretty well.
So it matters a lot where in the state you're from. Our big city speaks with a big voice, but by no means stands for the diversity of needs and attitudes in our state as a whole. There is no "typical New Mexican voter", any more than there could be a "typical" southern one. In this dicussion about sizing up Democratic prospects in the South, all of us non-southerners should keep that in mind.
BTW chad, where in south georgia did you grow up? my earliest memories are of our home in valdosta in the late 70s. just wondering if maybe you're from my neck of the woods.
Dana,
While not an apology, Gov. Dean's remarks were certain to be portrayed as one and that is why I put the word in quotes. As an example, here is a headline from today's NYTimes Onlines:
"Dean Apologizes for Remarks on Rebel Flag"
Now it's time to move on and win this election. Like a child being given a much needed but unwelcome bath, the South will get the benefits of a Dean presidency whether they want them or not.
Quitman, we practically grew up next to each other.
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