Off topic: http://www.tnr.com/etc.mhtml

"Meanwhile, a Dean aide declined to name a specific target in the same article, noting only that President Clinton's fundraising dropped off a bit in the fourth quarter of 1995 after setting a record (as Dean did) the quarter before."

Is the campaign worried about fundraising this quarter? Bring out the bat! Christmas might be slow, so give us advanced notice so we don't wait until the last minute. Bring out a bat for each million. It is a team sport and if we see that the going is tough, we'll pitch in and work harder.
Native Son | Email | Homepage | 12.03.03 - 9:33 pm | #

Glad you guys finally got this one right.

So is Karl slick or what? Just imagine if he had chosen to use his talents for good instead of evil.

Oh, and Anna, next time hold your fire (or should one say: ire) until the whole story comes out.
Mark S. | Email | Homepage | 12.03.03 - 9:34 pm | #

I live this sarcastic comment from Freyne, in which he mimics the freppers and trolls:

And does anyone know for certain we wouldn’t find Monica Lewinsky’s phone number in Dean’s sealed gubernatorial records? After all, he frequently visited Washington during the Clinton years and is a known heterosexual.

too funny...
Scott Trammell | Email | Homepage | 12.03.03 - 10:24 pm | #

And this from Freyne:

In Montpelier, Vermont, opposition researchers have been able to look through most of Gov. Dean’s records box by box. But in Texas, said LaPlante, a member of the public is not allowed to do so.

Instead, a written request for a “specific document” is the required procedure under Texas Public Records Act. He estimated 40 to 50 such requests have been made since the documents arrived in Austin. He was not aware how many requests had actually been approved.

It's time to ratchet up the written requests -- hey MoveOn.org! Wanna help???
Scott Trammell | Email | Homepage | 12.03.03 - 10:27 pm | #

This afternoon Judicial Watch sued Howard Dean in Montpelier Vermont for
access to public records put under seal during the last days of his term as governor. http://www.judicialwatch.org/cas...07/ deancomp.htm
Lawrence | Email | Homepage | 12.03.03 - 10:58 pm | #

mark, i'm sorry, i don't have any idea what you mean. but of course it's late and i've had a few drinks after a bad day, so i'm probably missing something right now. =(

seriously though, it's been one of those days. i was pretty pissed off when i posted earlier, so i'm sorry if i failed to discover what scott's got here. i was going on what i found via the aus-chron and google. i'll gladly stand corrected if need be.
anna | Email | Homepage | 12.04.03 - 12:18 am | #

You can get Bush's records online... or not?
PB | Email | Homepage | 12.04.03 - 12:19 am | #

http://www.tsl.state.tx.us/arc/f...gaids/ bush.html
PB | Email | Homepage | 12.04.03 - 12:22 am | #

Oh you CAN.
PB | Email | Homepage | 12.04.03 - 12:23 am | #

How flattering that this "secret records" flap has gained the attention it has. If there's nothing that will stick to Dean, they create a scandal about the little state of Vermont's big secret cache of important records that are probably stored next to a case of Ben and Jerry's Cherry Garcia. It will blow away much quicker than a flag flap.

Still, should Dean choose to dignify the charge, he should do another poll with his movement to see if we want the records released before he does so with apologies to the troubled aide he helped bail out and other patients.

Heath
DeanTV
Heath Eiden | Email | Homepage | 12.04.03 - 8:09 am | #

http://deandefense.org/archives/...ves/ 001475.html

Dean Defense is on it.

The link PB inserted does not give you direct access to anything. It is, instead, a way for you to file a request to see a specific record. The records have not been catalogued (as Dean's have been), and the claim has been made that will take 10 years (for six years of records, while Dean's 10 have already been catalogued, and are available).

PB is a liar. He is using a link to spread a lie, a complete and utter falsehood, namely that Bush's records are somehow easily accessible from the Web.

They are not.
Dana Blankenhorn | Email | Homepage | 12.04.03 - 8:17 am | #

dan, always with the name calling. here is a name for you, pseudo intellectual socialist. wear it proudly.
biz | Email | Homepage | 12.04.03 - 9:48 am | #

Biz: No one named Dan on this thread. Trolls can't even get who they're attacking right!
Dana Blankenhorn | Email | Homepage | 12.04.03 - 10:12 am | #

dana, you continue to edit me, i see i was deleted from other postings as well. how typically "nazi" liberal.
biz | Email | Homepage | 12.04.03 - 10:16 am | #

Uh, I'm a liar? Crazy; I've been called a liar on here for posting Dean quotes, and now for posting a link? You CAN get them IF you follow steps. They ARE being catalogued. It will NOT take 10 years (3 is the number floated for most things).

WTF is your problem? You just hate that you can't have a Dean-lovein and instead people challenge your claims. Unbelievable.
PB | Email | Homepage | 12.04.03 - 11:33 am | #

dana:

great points, that link is bogus -- it's a how-to make a records request form that is made to LOOK like it provides more than it does, enough for a lazy journalist to say the records are "available" before you can say, Crawford, TX.

the problem is AFTER you make the request -- beacuse AFTER you do, more likely than not, you will be turned down based on any of numerous exemptions and exceptions steeped in (Tex) archana...

Yeah, sure trolls above: Nazis?

Whatever, get back to us when the space shuttle lands.
Scott Trammell | Email | Homepage | 12.04.03 - 12:11 pm | #

But it the link a lie? I think not; anyone can go look at it. And courts have already overturned a lot of Bush's tactics and forced him to both move them, and open up certain records.

Most people would like to read the death row memos, but as of now, those are protected by the attorney-client priv. I don't know if you're a lawyer, but that confidentiality is a central tenet of all things law, and it deserves to be sorted out before unfair calls to just sort through capital cases.

Besides, have YOU ever tried to get ahold of specific info? I would before I said it was really hard to. BTW, you have to fill out forms to get ahold of a lot of declassified info from all sorts of levels of governments.

Boo-friggin who. Nothing you've said changes that Dean calls for accountability, but no one can get at his records for 10 years. A couple Dean supporters on here even acknowledge it sends the wrong signal. Why not just open them up, instead of saying "well Bush did too" when you can follow steps and get them?
PB | Email | Homepage | 12.04.03 - 1:31 pm | #

BTW, Dana... if I wanted to spread a lie, I would cover my tracks, not post the f-ing link, no?

Paranoid much?
PB | Email | Homepage | 12.04.03 - 1:32 pm | #

PB: where is YOUR homepage link and YOUR e-mail? It's time for Aziz to get out the IP logs again...

"it the link a lie?" Oh gawd, I'm gonna barf -- you could find something similar on most government websites -- they question is always, can you get the material? Who cares about the dumb link.

Sheesh. Well, dude, we were not making an issue of TX but rather the White House, and now you asses have stupid dork Gillespie opening up lines of attack that remind people just how secretive Bush. Net win for Dean, ya fooooooooools....
Scott Trammell | Email | Homepage | 12.04.03 - 1:51 pm | #

I dare you to TRY to get some material before you claim that it is hard. And saying you can't get the death penalty memos is not fair game because of the established atty-client priv.

You won't.

And BTW, what would you want my email and homepage for... to intimidate me? Ban me for my oh so offensive posts.

Par for course for people that support breaking up the television networks of your opponents, forcing people into unions, and on down the line.
PB | Email | Homepage | 12.04.03 - 4:26 pm | #

Um, well, I'm in law school (not a lawyer, though), and I must say that to suggest that a "attorney-client" privilege covers the Governor in death penalty cases is absurd.

He's an elected official. He undoubtedly gets advice, but who is the "attorney" here and who is the "client"?

I suppose the suggestion is that an elected official should be able to receive advice in a discreet manner, so that they can contemplate alternatives from different sources without being linked to this or that advisor.

I would suggest that public accountability must trump such legalese, especially concerning an issue as important (and subject to abuse) as the death penalty. Isn't it just to know whether electioneering was a major decision in sentencing a man who might be innocent to a premature death?
John | Email | Homepage | 12.04.03 - 5:13 pm | #

PB: read the Austin Chronicle article, did you read and of the pieces or just start shooting off your mouth? They have tried and been rebukes, and even the archivist says that the NYT piece was "deceiving" regarding availability.

John: Agreed. In fact, doesn't the public's right ot know trump any such calims in a matters of public policy and/or expenditures of tax dollars?
Scott Trammell | Email | Homepage | 12.04.03 - 5:42 pm | #

John

I too am in law school (1L) and I was only referring to a story that said those memos were privileged on those grounds, not making some rationale of my own.

And as you might know, often, the public good IS NOT the winner when it comes to legal battles, so saying that the public good should trump it is kinda odd. Especially considering that atty-client, and I read it (and will find, I thought i posted it), is considered a central, if not THE central tenent of a lawyers ethical behaviour. You should know that.
PB | Email | Homepage | 12.04.03 - 6:33 pm | #

And, btw, I think its F-ING hilarious that you ask if I have read the article when, tada, what I said was said is IN THE STORY.

Here's the link, and the quote...

http://www.austinchronicle.com/ i...s_feature4.html

Instead of releasing the documents, J. Kevin Patterson, Perry's assistant general counsel, appealed our request to the AG's office, asserting that both Bush's and Perry's memos (including those already disclosed) are "privileged" attorney-client communications and therefore legally exempt from public disclosure. The memos contain "advice and opinions" from counsel to governor, he argued, "made in confidence in furtherance of the attorney's rendition of professional legal services" to the governor, who uses the memos to decide whether a death row inmate will receive clemency or die by lethal injection. "Disclosure of information relating to such matters would inhibit free discussion among staff personnel as to this type of policy issue," wrote Patterson. On Sept. 10, the AG's office agreed, issuing an opinion, written by Assistant AG June B. Harden, that Perry's memos "may be withheld in their entirety."
PB | Email | Homepage | 12.04.03 - 6:38 pm | #

Hmmm... an atty general agreed with the rationale, but I guess this law student's opinion, and the ag, are no match for another law student. Please.
PB | Email | Homepage | 12.04.03 - 6:39 pm | #

Here's some more reading for you... something you should learn in school; it helps on tests... you know, not just throwing out some common sensical, often wrong, rationale for why something YOU think should happen for political gain should go against such an important legal principle.

http://www.theatlantic.com/issue...3/07/ berlow.htm

Each time a person was sentenced to death, Bush received from his legal counsel a document summarizing the facts of the case, usually on the morning of the day scheduled for the execution, and was then briefed on those facts by his counsel; based on this information Bush allowed the execution to proceed in all cases but one. The first fifty-seven of these summaries were prepared by Gonzales, a Harvard-educated lawyer who went on to become the Texas secretary of state and a justice on the Texas supreme court. He is now the White House counsel.

Gonzales never intended his summaries to be made public. Almost all are marked CONFIDENTIAL and state, "The privileges claimed include, but are not limited to, claims of Attorney-Client Privilege, Attorney Work-Product Privilege, and the Internal Memorandum exception to the Texas Public Information Act." I obtained the summaries and related documents, which have never been published, after the Texas attorney general ruled that they were not exempt from the disclosure requirements of the Public Information Act.
PB | Email | Homepage | 12.04.03 - 6:42 pm | #

blah blah blah blah

PB go get some J and go away
Scott Trammell | Email | Homepage | 12.04.03 - 7:32 pm | #

hahaha

Scott, you're an embarassment for your side.
PB | Email | Homepage | 12.04.03 - 8:58 pm | #

yeah, whatever

really, based on your logic, why aren't you defending Dean, huh?
Scott Trammell | Email | Homepage | 12.04.03 - 9:57 pm | #

http://38.144.96.23/tacitus/ arch...184.html#001184

An interesting commentary on the issue... the writer on here was right that said Dean can easily take the high ground and unseal the records. Otherwise, there is nada differentiating him and Bush, except Bush ran a much bigger/important state, his records are available, and has valid claims to protect the ones that are not.
PB | Email | Homepage | 12.05.03 - 12:07 am | #

2/3 of Dean's records are and have always been available -- more so than Bush's, I might add, are to date.

And dude, it's not the size of the state, it's the motion of the ocean.

Dean thread -- I'm out.
Scott Trammell | Email | Homepage | 12.05.03 - 12:11 am | #

ROFLMAO

"And dude, it's not the size of the state, it's the motion of the ocean."

Not that you care, but you just got much cooler in at least one "troll's" eyes. Funniest thing on the net tonight anyways.
PB | Email | Homepage | 12.05.03 - 12:18 am | #

scott trammell, you have showed your true colors and in doing so have lost all credibility. and yes you on the left are the nazis. with your though police and forcing groups (mainly christian) to change or be outlawed. your jew is now the christian. but im sure you'll have some wise retort to this like "shut up troll, the patriot act sucks" and "wah, wah". typical anti american liberal bunk. see ya pseudo intellectual.
biz | Email | Homepage | 12.05.03 - 12:06 pm | #